
Episode 248
Ukraine & the Era of Great Power Competition | John Mearsheimer & Stephen Walt

Episode 248
J. Mearsheimer & S. Walt
Ukraine & the Era of Great Power Competition | John Mearsheimer & Stephen Walt
summary
In Episode 248 of Hidden Forces, Demetri Kofinas speaks with professors of international relations John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt. Professor Mearsheimer is the R. Wendell Harrison Distinguished Service Professor of Political Science at the University of Chicago and the author of multiple books including “The Tragedy of Great Power Politics,” “Why Leaders Lie,” and “The Great Delusion: Liberal Dreams and International Realities.” Professor Walt is the Robert and Renee Belfer Professor of International Affairs at Harvard University’s John F. Kennedy School of Government. He is also the author of several books including “Revolution and War,” “Taming American Power: The Global Response to U.S. Primacy,” and most recently “The Hell of Good Intentions.” They both have appeared separately on the podcast before: professor Walt for a conversation on the decline of US primacy and professor Mearsheimer on the power of nationalism in international affairs.
They are also both prominent members of the so-called “realist school” and their views have often run counter to the prevailing orthodoxy in Washington, which one could broadly characterize as interventionist. John Mearsheimer especially has caught flak for his views on Ukraine, which went viral after the recent Russian invasion. Just one of his videos on YouTube alone has been seen over 26 million times. Demetri asks him about that experience, why he thinks his views have resonated so strongly with the public, and if there’s a connection between peoples’ views on Ukraine and their positions on the larger culture wars that seem to be dividing so many of us in Western societies today.
Of course, the conversation veers well beyond Ukraine, which is just the touching off point for a much larger discussion about the future of great power competition, the endurance of the alliance between Russia and China, America’s pivot to Asia and how Russia’s invasion of Ukraine could actually make that easier, and what should the goals of American foreign policy be.
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Producer & Host: Demetri Kofinas
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Episode Recorded on 05/10/2022
bio
John J. Mearsheimer is the R. Wendell Harrison Distinguished Service Professor of Political Science at the University of Chicago, where he has taught since 1982. He graduated from West Point in 1970 and then served five years as an officer in the U.S. Air Force. He then started graduate school in political science at Cornell University in 1975. He received his Ph.D. in 1980. Professor Mearsheimer has written extensively about security issues and international politics more generally. He has published six books: Conventional Deterrence (1983), which won the Edgar S. Furniss, Jr., Book Award; Liddell Hart and the Weight of History (1988); The Tragedy of Great Power Politics (2001, 2014), which won the Joseph Lepgold Book Prize and has been translated into nine different languages; The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy (with Stephen M. Walt, 2007), which made the New York Times bestseller list and has been translated into twenty-four different languages; Why Leaders Lie: The Truth about Lying in International Politics (2011), which has been translated into twelve different languages; and The Great Delusion: Liberal Dreams and International Realities (2018) which has been translated into five different languages.
Stephen Walt (born July 2, 1955) is the Robert and Renee Belfer Professor of International Affairs at Harvard University’s John F. Kennedy School of Government. He previously taught at Princeton and at the University of Chicago, where he served as Master of the Social Science Collegiate Division and Deputy Dean of Social Sciences. He has been a Resident Associate of the Carnegie Endowment for Peace and a Guest Scholar at the Brookings Institution, and he has also served as a consultant for the Institute of Defense Analyses, the Center for Naval Analyses, and the National Defense University. He presently serves on the editorial boards of Foreign Policy, Security Studies, International Relations, and Journal of Cold War Studies, and he also serves as Co-Editor of the Cornell Studies in Security Affairs, published by Cornell University Press. Professor Walt is the author of The Origins of Alliances (1987), which received the 1988 Edgar S. Furniss National Security Book Award. He is also the author of Revolution and War (1996), Taming American Power: The Global Response to U.S. Primacy (2005), The Israel Lobby (2007), and most recently The Hell of Good Intentions (2018).
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Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit. Magni enim aestimabat pecuniam non modo non contra leges, sed etiam legibus partam. Ex quo illud efficitur, qui bene cenent omnis libenter cenare, qui libenter, non continuo bene. Quid enim de amicitia statueris utilitatis causa expetenda vides. An vero displicuit ea, quae tributa est animi virtutibus tanta praestantia? Videmus igitur ut conquiescere ne infantes quidem possint. Duo Reges: constructio interrete.
Non potes ergo ista tueri, Torquate, mihi crede, si te ipse et tuas cogitationes et studia perspexeris; Qui bonum omne in virtute ponit, is potest dicere perfici beatam vitam perfectione virtutis; Facit igitur Lucius noster prudenter, qui audire de summo bono potissimum velit;
Qui autem esse poteris, nisi te amor ipse ceperit? Hoc uno captus Erillus scientiam summum bonum esse defendit nec rem ullam aliam per se expetendam. Obsecro, inquit, Torquate, haec dicit Epicurus? Itaque ab his ordiamur. Atque haec coniunctio confusioque virtutum tamen a philosophis ratione quadam distinguitur. At cum de plurimis eadem dicit, tum certe de maximis.
Quod autem ratione actum est, id officium appellamus. Hoc loco discipulos quaerere videtur, ut, qui asoti esse velint, philosophi ante fiant. Res enim fortasse verae, certe graves, non ita tractantur, ut debent, sed aliquanto minutius. Quasi vero, inquit, perpetua oratio rhetorum solum, non etiam philosophorum sit. Heri, inquam, ludis commissis ex urbe profectus veni ad vesperum. Nunc haec primum fortasse audientis servire debemus. Portenta haec esse dicit, neque ea ratione ullo modo posse vivi; Huius ego nunc auctoritatem sequens idem faciam. Quod idem cum vestri faciant, non satis magnam tribuunt inventoribus gratiam. Fortemne possumus dicere eundem illum Torquatum?
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Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit. Et hercule-fatendum est enim, quod sentio -mirabilis est apud illos contextus rerum. An eum discere ea mavis, quae cum plane perdidiceriti nihil sciat? Haeret in salebra. Nonne igitur tibi videntur, inquit, mala? Quam ob rem tandem, inquit, non satisfacit? Atque ab isto capite fluere necesse est omnem rationem bonorum et malorum. Laboro autem non sine causa; Duo Reges: constructio interrete.
Erit enim mecum, si tecum erit. Huic mori optimum esse propter desperationem sapientiae, illi propter spem vivere. Cupiditates non Epicuri divisione finiebat, sed sua satietate. Quibus ego vehementer assentior. Polycratem Samium felicem appellabant.
Mihi quidem Antiochum, quem audis, satis belle videris attendere. Ex quo, id quod omnes expetunt, beate vivendi ratio inveniri et comparari potest. Virtutibus igitur rectissime mihi videris et ad consuetudinem nostrae orationis vitia posuisse contraria. Quae cum magnifice primo dici viderentur, considerata minus probabantur. Saepe ab Aristotele, a Theophrasto mirabiliter est laudata per se ipsa rerum scientia;
Neque enim civitas in seditione beata esse potest nec in discordia dominorum domus; Quae quidem sapientes sequuntur duce natura tamquam videntes; Quamquam ab iis philosophiam et omnes ingenuas disciplinas habemus; Plane idem, inquit, et maxima quidem, qua fieri nulla maior potest. Quacumque enim ingredimur, in aliqua historia vestigium ponimus. Ut proverbia non nulla veriora sint quam vestra dogmata. Aliena dixit in physicis nec ea ipsa, quae tibi probarentur;
intelligence report
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Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit. Non autem hoc: igitur ne illud quidem. Quod non faceret, si in voluptate summum bonum poneret. Itaque e contrario moderati aequabilesque habitus, affectiones ususque corporis apti esse ad naturam videntur. Ergo id est convenienter naturae vivere, a natura discedere. Inde sermone vario sex illa a Dipylo stadia confecimus.
Ne discipulum abducam, times. Duo Reges: constructio interrete. Bonum negas esse divitias, praeposìtum esse dicis? Claudii libidini, qui tum erat summo ne imperio, dederetur. Quorum altera prosunt, nocent altera. Commoda autem et incommoda in eo genere sunt, quae praeposita et reiecta diximus; Haec quo modo conveniant, non sane intellego. Ratio quidem vestra sic cogit. Itaque hoc frequenter dici solet a vobis, non intellegere nos, quam dicat Epicurus voluptatem.
Tanti autem aderant vesicae et torminum morbi, ut nihil ad eorum magnitudinem posset accedere. Ait enim se, si uratur, Quam hoc suave! dicturum. Idemque diviserunt naturam hominis in animum et corpus. In quibus doctissimi illi veteres inesse quiddam caeleste et divinum putaverunt. Te ipsum, dignissimum maioribus tuis, voluptasne induxit, ut adolescentulus eriperes P. Hanc quoque iucunditatem, si vis, transfer in animum; Ab hoc autem quaedam non melius quam veteres, quaedam omnino relicta.
Sed quanta sit alias, nunc tantum possitne esse tanta. Ita enim vivunt quidam, ut eorum vita refellatur oratio. Quodsi vultum tibi, si incessum fingeres, quo gravior viderere, non esses tui similis; Ab his oratores, ab his imperatores ac rerum publicarum principes extiterunt. Commoda autem et incommoda in eo genere sunt, quae praeposita et reiecta diximus; Tibi hoc incredibile, quod beatissimum.
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Video
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Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit. Etenim si delectamur, cum scribimus, quis est tam invidus, qui ab eo nos abducat? Itaque quantum adiit periculum! ad honestatem enim illum omnem conatum suum referebat, non ad voluptatem. Ego vero isti, inquam, permitto. Quid ei reliquisti, nisi te, quoquo modo loqueretur, intellegere, quid diceret? Occultum facinus esse potuerit, gaudebit; Licet hic rursus ea commemores, quae optimis verbis ab Epicuro de laude amicitiae dicta sunt. Duo Reges: constructio interrete.
Quid enim ab antiquis ex eo genere, quod ad disserendum valet, praetermissum est? Quis animo aequo videt eum, quem inpure ac flagitiose putet vivere? Quarum ambarum rerum cum medicinam pollicetur, luxuriae licentiam pollicetur. Beatus sibi videtur esse moriens. Quid turpius quam sapientis vitam ex insipientium sermone pendere? Facete M.
Est autem etiam actio quaedam corporis, quae motus et status naturae congruentis tenet; Scio enim esse quosdam, qui quavis lingua philosophari possint; Sed ea mala virtuti magnitudine obruebantur. Idem adhuc; Itaque in rebus minime obscuris non multus est apud eos disserendi labor. Pisone in eo gymnasio, quod Ptolomaeum vocatur, unaque nobiscum Q. Sed quod proximum fuit non vidit. Iam illud quale tandem est, bona praeterita non effluere sapienti, mala meminisse non oportere? Quos quidem tibi studiose et diligenter tractandos magnopere censeo.
At hoc in eo M. Et hercule-fatendum est enim, quod sentio -mirabilis est apud illos contextus rerum.